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Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

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Bo Pyskow
Collector

Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

My company would like to migrate from 4.5 to 5.1!
I know about the announcements from Vienna. And i have talked to an instructor from HP. But i would like your opinions too.

One of the reason for this is that we want a clean install. We have made too many small mistakes, in the past, and we want to use this knowledge to make a better enviroment.

Another thing is performance. Will it be better in 5.1.

Is the administation easier?

Will we have a smoother migration when we move from 5.1 to the new Service Center?

All your points are valuable to me, so please give it to me.

Happy Holiday from Denmark
Bo Pyskow
54 REPLIES
George M. Meneg
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Well, though 5.1 has some enhancements over sd 4.5, the latter generally has more critical features like dynamic forms, unlimited custom fields of any type, e-mail service calls etc.

If sd 5.1 did a catch up on the features of sd 4.5 we would consider of going to 5.1 (even if we had to run db/ui rules from the scratch) but in current status there are some flows based on features that 4.5 has and 5.1 doesn't that simple doesn't allow us even to think about it!
menes fhtagn
Radovan Skolnik
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi!

The upgrade is not yet officially supported - the migration tools haven't been made generally available for public and remain in beta. So there is no fficial supported way (at leats to my knowledge) on how to do that.

Also there's other issues: new features in post 17SPs in 4.5, no plan for new features in 5.1 ever, migration to version 7 (unified SD and Peregrine) is announced for 4.5 and not 5.x and so on and so on. Read more here: http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=1085540

With 5.x lagging so long after being announced and being announced to contain no new features , only bugfixes it seems to me 5.x has been a great failure at HP's side...
Mark O'Loughlin
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

HI,

there is an improved SLM module in 5.x which will remain in the new SM 7 application. If you really need SLM 5.x might be the version however by the time it takes to implement SLM you may find SM7 available.
Bo Pyskow
Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Thanks so far for your input.

What im hearing here is that i shouldnt waste time on it, and wait for the Service Center to arrive. Is that correct understood ?

Merry X-mas all
Steven De Smet
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Bo,

I think you make the correct conclusion.

In my experience the performance of 5.1 is bad in comparisation to 4.5 On the other hand, not using the Microsoft JVM could be pro 5.1.

About administration, it is the same. Big difference is that you don't get a separated admin console but it you can find all admin items on the shorcut bar.

If you really want to move to anything and keep a smooth migration to SM in scope, migrate to Service Center 6.2.

But then again, is it worth the pain to migrate twice in lets say 5 years timespan?


Michael Daly_2
Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Bo

We have been told by HP in Melbourne, Australia that the combined or converged HP Service Desk and Peregrine products will be released at the end of 2007 as a product called 'Service Manager 7'. The version number is to align the two products to a common version because the Peregrine Service Center is currently 6.2. From what we have heard HP is still on target to meet this new product release.

We recently upgraded from SD 4.5(SP-12) to SD 4.5(SP-20) and are very happy with this product. We are not big users of the SLM module (if you have that module) and thus we stayed at SD 4.5 to enjoy the new features that have been released beyond SP-17. The latest SD 4.5 Service Pack is SP-21.

From some previous comments or feedback the main or most significant improvements to SD 5.x is the work done to improve the SLM module. These enhancements that are in SD 5.x will carry over into Service Manager 7 but apart from that SD 5.x is dead in the water apart from bug fixes, because functionality wise it stopped at SP-17.

The upgrade paths for SD 4.5 are very good and I would recommend staying this this version until HP can ship Service Manager 7 at the end of 2007.

Regards

Michael Daly
27 Dec 2006
Radovan Skolnik
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Michael, I greatly agree with what you're saying - 5.x is dead. However let me comment on Service Manager 7 being available at the end of 2007. If HP can manage that I'll be happy and would congratulate them. Now it is about:

1. merge of their codebase with totally different product's codebase (what functionality from what product?)
2. providing a way to migrate from 2 older products to this new one (ServiceDesk and ServiceCenter)

This seems to me one magnitude more complicated than 4.5 -> 5.0 transition that took so many years.
Steven De Smet
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Radovan,

on the other hand:

- Service Manager 7 is totally based on Service center (so existing code will stay and new functionallity will become on top of this). OVSD 5 was a complete code refresh (although your are right that the release date communications where absolutly ridicoulus)

- The development team exist of the OVSD 5 team, OVSD 4.5 team and the ex-Peregrine team.

But indeed then again we will wait and see and have all information on the next software universe.
Radovan Skolnik
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Steven, it is just a matter of wording and even so I hope you are not right entirely. I hope there will be a fusion of codebases (i.e. best from both) - not just few additions to Peregrine architecture (like sticking the SLM module on top of it). Both userbases will be looking for what they are accustomed to and it is quite hard for me to believe that successor to SD will have(almost) nothing in common with SD as we know it.

Let me also comment one more thing. I had a chance to briefly play with ServiceCenter 6.2 installation. What struck me as absolutely missing there was the focus on ITIL SD had. I mean you could implement ITIL processes without any problems. It is just the big difference in philosophies both products have:

* in SD you're working (i.e. importing, create rules and logic) with ITIL entities - the database structure is (almost) invisible for you.
* in SC you're basically an administrator of a database (with lots of tables with cryptic names not giving much sense - at least for my brief encounter with it) with nice GUI on top of it. It gives you much broader possibilites as what you want to implement but also requires broader knowledge, more time, etc...

So at least for this I hope HP will stick with SD approach - giving you set of pre-defined ITIL entities that you can work with.

On the other I would love to see the GUI part taken from Peregrine. The schizophraenia(or what the correct spelling is) of having native GUI, WEB console and ServicePages (each with its own limitations) is just crazy.
spiff1971
Acclaimed Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

We were going to move from SD 4.5 to SD 5.1x, however, HP suggested that we go directly to Service Center 6.2

I know for us, so far, it appears that there is a lot more flexibility with SC 6.2

As for SM 7.0, we'll see when it get delivered.....

Chris
-=R=-
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Bo,

We didn't have the priveledge of using 4.5. We migrated from our old call tracking tool (other vendor) to OVSD 5.1. Do not... I repeat... DO NOT move to 5.1. A fresh start in 5.1 is replacing a few small mistakes with one big fat one.

As I've said in a previous thread: The features are over engineered and unreliable. The stability is non-existant, performance is pitifull, and support is abysmal.

Here's a few examples:
- It often takes 15 - 20 seconds for views of 100 records or less to load. HP tells us its "acceptable" perforamnce but they absolutely will not divulge information on acceptable standards.
- We're 6 months into an integration and have ZERO ability to calculate SLA performance. Why? Because the HP C&I thought business rules could adhere to schedules. Oops.
- The SLM module is all or nothing. You can absolutely forget about doing things half way... or even marginally variant from HP's views.
- Configuration exchange is a cruel joke. I must have spent 100+ hours in that tool with HP C&I and I think it managed a successfull import twice.

Those are just off the top of my head. Within an hour I could send you a pages long document outlining this fucking nightmare we call 5.1. Everything from the design philosophy, to the code, to the "experts" who implement it is just shy of useless.

Don't do it man. I'd go so far as to suggest other tools and vendors before upgrading to 5.1.
Michael Daly_2
Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi all

It's now mid May 2007 and I haven't heard how HP are tracking with release dates of the Service Desk/Service Centre replacement. I have heard it may not be called Service Manager 7 but Service Centre 7 as the ex Peregrine team have been given the task to delivering this project - on time. I think HP was so embarrassed at the stuff up on non delivery and failure of Service Desk 5.x that with Peregrine's track delivery of on-time delivery of product releases that they have been chosen over the Service Desk team.

What muddies the water is the acquisition of Mercury. With HP's endless buying spree of other companies they are never able to deliver products before they buy something else then they want to integrate parts of that new product, and all previous plans and timelines are shot out of the water.

So I'm not so sure what is going to be delivered and when which is piss poor for companies who are trying to be proactive in their forward planning.

Another point with the whole ex Openview suite is the lack of a central CMBD or database. Currently it's a nightmare to try and reconcile what items (C.I.'s) are in an NNM database, an OVOW database and a Service Desk database. These products are all part of the same suite yet they all have separate databases and their is not a single source of truth. HP told us that after they acquired Peregrine that the Asset Centre product was to become the new super and single repository or core storage of all CI's that all these products were to share. Great in theory but will it every happen in our lifetime?

I'd love to see HP get their act together with their products and get on and deliver!

Michael Daly
10 May 2007
Jay Mistry
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi Michael

I have spoke to a number of HP representatives and they are telling me that the release date for Service Manager 7.0 will be around Dec 2007, going on HP's previous delivery dates you may be looking at early 2008 before SM7 is available.

I am attending a HP event in Amstelveen in June which gives an insight into SM7's functionality.
I will post any info I get onto this forum/thread.

Jay
Michael Daly_2
Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi Jay

That would be great. I'd be very interested to hear of any release dates for SM7 and what content will be included. We just received a Service Pack 3 for Service Desk 5.1 when I thought it was long dead. Are they planning to keep it functional to try and port as much of it as possible into Service Manager 7.n?

We aren't using SD 5.1 as we stayed with SD 4.5 (SP-20). We are also big users of NNM, OVOW, SIP, PI, OVIS and we are evaluating HP's new NCM product. Thus we are also very interested to know how HP are integrating these products with a common or universal CMDB so whenever we look for a report of CI's from whatever product we will have consistency of data or a 'single' source of truth as opposed to the current method of each of the above products having their own database or CMDB and NO internal reconciliation between HP's own suite of products.

So I think your HP conference will be very interesting and I look forward to some feedback.

Thanks Jay.

Michael Daly
21 May 2007
Alexander T.
Super Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Any news, Jay=)?
Jay Mistry
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi All,

I attended the event over in Amstelveen last week and HP had some interesting announcements that I think alot of you out there will be interested in.

SM7.0 is due for release in Dec THIS YEAR, apparently development stops on JUne 20th so whatever funcationality is not complete by then will not be delivered in SM7.0
HP seem very focused on the delivery date and seem very adamant for that date to slip back into next year. the release in Dec 2007 will be in English only, for localisation the release will be 3 months later.
SM7.1 will be released around a year later, Dec 2008 according to HP.

The migration from SD4.5 to SM7.x looks very complicated and HP are working on some tools to aid with the data migration.
You will need to be running at least SP23 to be able to migrate from SD4.5 to SM7. You could attempt to use the migration tools on other SP's but HP have not tested that and therefore you would probably be unsupported.

End of suppport for Service Desk 4.5 according to HP is going to be Dec 2009, this is not 100% set in stone as you know HP seem to change things whenever they feel like it.

Im still making notes of the functionality that will be available in SM7 but you can expect the majority of the features available in Service Centre to appear in SM7.
improved SLM module, Workflows, improved approval mechanism, service catalogue, web architecture, web client are some of the features SM7 will provide.

I will post more info on this string when I have sorted my notes and maybe put some slides together.
De Naeyer Robby
Super Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hi Bo,

Plain and simple answer:
- Service Desk 5.x is a dead product
- Service Manager 7 is not yet available
- Service Desk 4.5 is a stabel product with a dead end roadmap.

You should wait for the right opportunity to upgrade towards Service Manager 7. We all know that the migration towards Service Manager 7 will be a bumpy road.
So my guess is chose for the moust stable product.

In this case you will not be hasseld by any delays or product instabilities.
Also with the new Service Manager 7 there will be an new pricing. And i advise you to wait for this new pricing before making any high investments in your Service Management environment.
Michael Daly_2
Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Jay

Thanks for the update. Very interesting and very good to hear HP are sticking to the delivery date I heard some time ago. I didn't know anything about stopping development on the 20th June 07 and the requirement to be at SD 4.5(SP-23).

We are now planning to move up to SP-23. We must be lucky as we have installed two updates (from SP-4 -> SP-12, then from SP-12 -> SP 20) and we didn't miss a beat.

Please post more news if you have any...

Michael
13 June 2007
-=R=-
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Jay,

Did they happen to say anything about 5.1 migration to SM7.0? My guess is they didn't... since they seem to derive so much pleasure from screwing 5.1 clients.
Radovan Skolnik
Honored Contributor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

-=R=-,

I wouldn't say it better. HP surely made themselves a hell lot of problems for the time when they will need to step in front of 5.x customers and confess the truthabout how long it will take (if ever) to migrate them to new version.

Also for both version (4.5 and 5.x) the customers won't be exactly jumping from joy when they find that they need to spend considerable amounts for migration. The tools maybe migrate data but the it will require large projects to re-implement all the functionality...
-=R=-
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Radovan,

I'm not sure I have the words to express my frustration with HP. If they can't make the effort to help the 5.1 customers, then I can't make the effort to justify another half a million dollars in consulting. There's more than one player in this space, and they'd bed over backwards for the opportunity to upstage OVSD for that amount of money. They're banging down my door right now and the only thing I hear from HP is callous silence.
-=R=-
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Radovan,

I'm not sure I have the words to express my frustration with HP. If they can't make the effort to help the 5.1 customers, then I can't make the effort to justify another half a million dollars in consulting. There's more than one player in this space, and they'd bend over backwards for the opportunity to upstage OVSD for that amount of money. They're banging down my door right now and the only thing I hear from HP is callous silence.
UVA-OVSD
Regular Collector

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

i'm also experiencing lots of silence. We need a mayor 'makeover' of our 5.0 environment. HP :-> to 5.10 p3

Does it stay with silence ? Does HP offer Relaibuility ?!?!?!?!
-=R=-
Frequent Visitor

Re: Should i migrate from 4.5 to 5.1?

Hey UVA-OVSD,

To answer your question simply: No.

There is no stability, reliability, or even old fashioned common courtesy to be found with HP on OVSD 5.1. I can't stress this enough. You'll spend a metric ton of money constructing a nightmare seldom seen in IT. Fight, kick, and scream to stay on 4.x. If it were mine to do over, I'd look at competing products before going to OVSD 5.1.

If your organization wants specifics, or even a demonstration of this sick joke of a tool, I'm more than happy to arrange a webex. Send me a pm.
//Add this to "OnDomLoad" event